Poly or what?

[Valynn]

Looking back all of my long term relationships have turned into pseudo-poly in the long run, including my marriage. My last relationship was what I called "an amorphous configuration of friendship". I had a crush on my friend W (bi male, says he's poly). Our other friend & W's housemate B (straight male) had a crush on me. I entered this arrangement knowing that I was having sex with both W & B. That wasn't the problem. W didn't want labels. And cause he was so afraid of attachments he wanted all of us "to be free to come and go as we wanted." We had no official boundaries or rules, or so I thought.

Summer 2014- I was able to go to a HUGE medieval (2 week long camping event) event called Pennsic. For a medievalist this is the place to get anything related to your hobby. Clothing, classes, parties, armored fighting.....you name it, it's there.
I could only go for 1 week, but I packed as many adventures & experiences as I could. I had told both W & B that I plan on having some on the side fun. & that I would bring protection with me. The only time that happened was when I went to a bardic circle & persuaded a male friend to come back to my tent for some making out.

The weekend after I came back I sat them down & told them what happened. B accepted it readily, W acted shocked and angry at me. For a while he refused to touch me. B & I were both confused cause when B went to the same event the year before I did, W acted like it wasn't a problem.

Unfortunately, I went into a deep depression after I lost an extremely stressful job in February of last year. W can't deal with any negativity. So any time I would talk, he'd close down. B tried to be helpful. So I ended up pouring it all on him. It became too much for him as well. And I ended up feeling that my feelings weren't being heard. So I gave up trying. Once that happened whatever you want to call what we had just shriveled up and died. We all remain friends. But now W won't talk to me unless it's completely platonic. And nothing has been settled. Even though W has a mono gf now. But W & B still discuss what went wrong. Just not with me. B will slip me info occasionally on the side.

What I think I am trying to get at is..was this an actual poly triad or was it just a FWB type situation? I am now on my own trying to figure out what I want. Knowing what to look for make things much easier & less painful. I am on OKC and all the non-monogamous type people are heavy into BDSM in my area (NYC/LI). I have nothing against that, just not my cup of tea.

 

[drgnfly]

Ok, so you were hooking up with W and B, but they were just friend's, nothing going on between them. I think they would say this is more of a V with you as the hinge. As for poly, I would think it would depend on the feeling aspect between you.
It's a shame what happened between everyone, for something that was suppose to have no attachment's, there was an awful amount of fallout from you just trying to have a little fun.
Losing a good job is hard to take, especially if you really liked it. I was, and still am, dealing with this close to home. It is difficult to combat the self doubt that come's along with the loss, harder to watch someone go through it. Sometimes it feels like as much as you try, you are just not helping enough or in the right way. I hope you were able to recover and have found a better job since.
As far as the local poly scene on LI I really haven't found much around. You are absolutely correct, most of what I have seen had to do with the BDSM culture.
Feel free to PM me if you want a more local aspect on anything.

 

[Valynn]

Actually there was some light play between W & B, and that was happening long before anything with me. But it was mainly centered on me. The job wasn't a good one. I was a CSR that has dyscalculia. And I told the employer of this before they hired me. In the end I was being mentally abused by my supervisor cause she never believed me about my affliction. This brought back bad memories of my failed marriage. So everything was a downward spiral for me. and it took out what I held dear, my relationship with W & B.

 

[drgnfly]

Yea sound's like the job wasn't good for you. Being a CSR is difficult enough, and that's before what you got (I'll be honest, i had to look it up). A sadistic supervisor also does not help. Your better off working elsewhere.
Have you had any success with recovery from your depression? It sound's like you have had a rough time of thing's

 

[Valynn]

I decided to pursue something that allowed me to heal while creating something beautiful as well as useful. Soapmaking. I am now trying to make it into a successful small business.
But before I can really do that I needed an area in my mother's house to make my soaps. So I cleaned out the basement. It's still a work-in-progress, but it has given me a sense of accomplishment that was just enough of a kick in the ass to get out of the dark place I was in. I am not completely out of the woods yet, but I am getting there.

 

[drgnfly]

Congratulations on each small step towards getting back to your happy self. You have found a great idea for you to sooth yourself which can also open further opportunity's. I have received homemade soaps as a party gift a few month's back, when done right the quality exceeds the store bought stuff. It may still be a work in progress, and even if you do not end up selling your soap in target some day, as long as you find it rewarding that's all that count's.

 

[Valynn]

Congratulations on each small step towards getting back to your happy self. You have found a great idea for you to sooth yourself which can also open further opportunity's.

Thanks, it's been a long dark tunnel but I can finally see a light at the end of it.

I have received homemade soaps as a party gift a few month's back, when done right the quality exceeds the store bought stuff. It may still be a work in progress, and even if you do not end up selling your soap in target some day, as long as you find it rewarding that's all that count's.

Handmade soap is so much different than what you get in the big box stores. I love every aspect of my business. Making it gives me accomplishment & selling it gives me pride, a boost in ego as well as income.

 

[Dickdomin]

Looking back all of my long term relationships have turned into pseudo-poly in the long run, including my marriage.

I am wondering what pseudo-poly means. I do not know what resources are like in the NYC area anymore, but seems like given you suffer from depression that being able to talk to a therapist might be a place for you to start this sorting of feelings and confusion out.

What I think I am trying to get at is..was this an actual poly triad or was it just a FWB type situation? I am now on my own trying to figure out what I want. Knowing what to look for make things much easier & less painful. I am on OKC and all the non-monogamous type people are heavy into BDSM in my area (NYC/LI). I have nothing against that, just not my cup of tea.

It has been so long since I was on OKC, but the word "All" triggers my psychotherapist. I also have been involved in the 'bdsm' scene for decades and the range of behaviors, kinks etc. are so wide that you giving the blanket statement 'not my cup of tea,' sort of gives me another.

Now, I also hold that most of the people in bdsm who identify as dominants are not, and most of them in the non-monogamous I would not call poly either, but... neither here or there.

It does seem you are not going to be happy with monogamy, and honestly I do not think monogamy is a natural state. How you move forward? Hmmm I am a big fan of trust the serendipity.

As a man who helped over 200 women in the NYC area start businesses under an SBA independent contract, I'd advise you to see what is left of the SBA in your area. There are always retired people who like helping just to keep their hand in the game, keep from turning into doddering fools and for the ego boost, especially one where a "hot, young chick" <yeah you don't think so but the guy who is 65 does! lol) is stroking their ego.

Of course who knows, one of those guys, a few buyers... you could never tell where the next guy(s) you are going to drive crazy could come from!

"No Mom, we're just making sooooappp!"

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm glad to hear you are doing better and making a go of your soap business.

I am sorry to hear about the break up. I hope you heal from that soon.

FWIW? To me it sounded like W wanted to call it casual FWB, but in actuality it was an Open V with you as the hinge. It sounds like what W meant by "FWB" is that he wanted it to be a V that was (Closed for you, but Open for the men.) But he didn't want to say that out loud, and got upset when you came home from the medieval gathering. You reported ahead of time and after in good faith, and he was not happy to hear it because it isn't what he wanted you to do. But neither did he ask you if you would be willing to Close before you left. For all that he wanted "no attachments" he seems to have been pretty attached to some unspoken expectations of you and huffy later when you didn't magically know them.

During the depression, I think W bailed, and you leaned too much on B instead of seeking help outside the system -- other friends, a counselor, etc. I think it is pretty weird B keeps talking about it with W and telling you info from the side. I wonder if W has also been overleaning on B during all this time and B is worn out? If B needs venting, he could tell someone else and not you. Or he could ask W to stop.

I don't think slipping you info from the side helps you to move on. You could ask B to stop telling you.

If you are seeking closure, you could give that to yourself.

If you are seeking apology from W for saying one thing but meaning another and then acting out in various ways? You could ask him to apologize. But don't hold your breath since you say he doesn't like "negativity." He sounds conflict avoidant, and in this case it was his own unspoken expectations that bit him in the butt. You cannot be expected to be a mind reader. He had opportunity when you reported ahead of time to ask you if you could be willing not to go there this time and talk to him about changing agreements. But he did not speak up. So he could own it rather than act out. You did nothing wrong under the known agreements.

But now W won't talk to me unless it's completely platonic. And nothing has been settled. Even though W has a mono gf now. But W & B still discuss what went wrong. Just not with me. B will slip me info occasionally on the side.

None of that behavior sounds very "friendly" to me. It sounds like a one way street relationship with W. His way or nothing. I hope he isn't ruminating so much with B that he's neglecting the new GF. But none of that is your problem now.

I am glad you are free from it and on the upswing.

Galagirl

 

[Dickdomin]

I think it is pretty weird W & B keep talking about it. I wonder if W has also been overleaning on B during all this time and B is worn out?

If they want to keep nitpicking it they can, but it's over, and I don't think slipping you info from the side helps you to move on. You could ask B to stop telling you.

Galagirl

Or you could go with the old NY saying, "It ain't over, til its over."

So recap in my book: B, straight except.... W, bi and open, except.... You making soap and wondering WTF was That?!?! While the boys seem to still be talking about it.

So, yeah maybe it is over. I mean if it is up to the girls, it is fucking over, get a life and leave me alone! But boys, like dogs keep coming back and seeing if maybe we could fix this except I don't know how to say I am sorry.

I mean bi guy long term mono with only a girlfriend? Just saying.

In the meantime, I have actually heard that some people meet in real life. Have you ever considered opening your radar up a bit? You know at the soap supply depot or the coffee shop or.... I hate to think how many relationships I started in the fruit aisle, but I am a man who....

Just for a bit of clarification are your poly-pseudo-poly all MFM?

I mean sitting down with some random guy you thought looked interesting, or even hot and saying, "So if you were going to ask me to bring one of these women here home with us, which one would you like me to bring?"

I mean I can see more men would like to start that discussion, though I must confess I am the type of perv who you could sit down and say, "So which 5 guys do you think would make the best combination with you for a memorable afternoon?" But you had better not be drinking one of those Soy Lattes. I mean I am kinky, but I have my dignity.

 

[Valynn]

I am wondering what pseudo-poly means.

It's kinda hard to explain. Out of the 5 LT relationships I have had, 4 have been mono that turned poly that ended it.

#1- My first bf & relationship, ended after I got "too frisky" (kissing while tipsy) other male friend at party.
#2 - Male from party & I date. His former GF, another girl friend & I play kissing games regularly with him. He is HEAVY into BDSM, leads to abuse.
#3- Medievalist friend & I. Dated 4 months, got pregnant, married. While marriage is failing (Husband undiagnosed bipolar, emotional & mental abuse) we got close to another male medievalist. I fall for M2. M1 is jealous, accuses me of cheating. Divorced after 8yrs of marriage.
#4- Male met on dating site. Said he was agoraphobic, would only see me late in the evening (2am & later), mainly to go to a hotel and fuck. While satisfying in the short run, quickly got boring for me. He suggested swinging where he would be the primary to find & set up the parties. He got me my first bi experience. Her & I got too close. And he began to become SUPER jealous. He broke up with me after I didn't call or text him after I had returned from a gaming convention I worked at. Same weekend I found some pictures of him with another woman on a SD card he had given me. Good riddance.

It has been so long since I was on OKC, but the word "All" triggers my psychotherapist. I also have been involved in the 'bdsm' scene for decades and the range of behaviors, kinks etc. are so wide that you giving the blanket statement 'not my cup of tea,' sort of gives me another.

See above with #2. I like some aspects of BDSM, I still have fears of it turning into abuse.

It does seem you are not going to be happy with monogamy, and honestly I do not think monogamy is a natural state. How you move forward? Hmmm I am a big fan of trust the serendipity.

I don't think so either. That was one of the reasons I had tried my ACoF (see original post for meaning :\ )

As a man who helped over 200 women in the NYC area start businesses under an SBA independent contract, I'd advise you to see what is left of the SBA in your area.

Already have. But thanks for the tip

"No Mom, we're just making sooooappp!"

We never played where I live so this never came up. Our code was Rolling Up Characters when we were around my then 15yr old son.

 

[Valynn]

I'm glad to hear you are doing better and making a go of your soap business.

I am sorry to hear about the break up. I hope you heal from that soon.

Thanks & I am working on it.

FWIW? To me it sounded like W wanted to call it casual FWB, but in actuality it was an Open V with you as the hinge. It sounds like what W meant by "FWB" is that he wanted it to be a V that was (Closed for you, but Open for the men.) But he didn't want to say that out loud, and got upset when you came home from the medieval gathering. You reported ahead of time and after in good faith, and he was not happy to hear it because it isn't what he wanted you to do. But neither did he ask you if you would be willing to Close before you left. For all that he wanted "no attachments" he seems to have been pretty attached to some unspoken expectations of you and huffy later when you didn't magically know them.

That is exactly how I see it. W's communication skills regarding his feelings are spotty at best.

During the depression, I think W bailed, and you leaned too much on B instead of seeking help outside the system -- other friends, a counselor, etc.

Yup, but from what B says. W thinks I bailed. I don't have many friends, especially girlfriends. I joke around that mentally I a man in a woman's body & that is freaks women out.

I think it is pretty weird B keeps talking about it with W and telling you info from the side. I wonder if W has also been overleaning on B during all this time and B is worn out?

They are best friends so having them talk like this is nothing new. W has not said that what we had is completely done. B & I have gone back to being friends cause we feel it's not right to continue until things have been talked about. We are still waiting to see where that line of thinking leads.

If you are seeking closure, you could give that to yourself.

If you are seeking apology from W for saying one thing but meaning another and then acting out in various ways? You could ask him to apologize. But don't hold your breath since you say he doesn't like "negativity." He sounds conflict avoidant, and in this case it was his own unspoken expectations that bit him in the butt. You cannot be expected to be a mind reader. He had opportunity when you reported ahead of time to ask you if you could be willing not to go there this time and talk to him about changing agreements. But he did not speak up. So he could own it rather than act out. You did nothing wrong under the known agreements.

EXACTLY!

None of that behavior sounds very "friendly" to me. It sounds like a one way street relationship with W. His way or nothing. I hope he isn't ruminating so much with B that he's neglecting the new GF. But none of that is your problem now.

I am glad you are free from it and on the upswing.

W has had some very bad relationships in the past. He never takes anything at face value from anyone, especially a woman he is close too. As for J (the mono gf) they are in full on NRE. And she seems very good for him.

 

[Valynn]

Or you could go with the old NY saying, "It ain't over, til its over."

Yups. That is where we are at this point

So recap in my book: B, straight except.... W, bi and open, except.... You making soap and wondering WTF was That?!?! While the boys seem to still be talking about it.

Just for a bit of clarification are your poly-pseudo-poly all MFM?

Yes, sorry. I am the F bi/poly in the MFM V. B- M Mono/straight with bi & poly tendencies. W- M bi/poly w/commitment issues.

Yeah, I wanted clarification, a sense of togetherness. But that just set off all the warning bells for W. I didn't need to tell anyone else. It was none of their business what we where. All it was for my personal benefit. But even that was too much for W.

 

[GalaGirl]

W thinks I bailed.

On what? You not fulfilling his unspoken expectations? You are supposed to flutter around him tending to him always and mind readering? Maybe you don't want that job. He can think whatever. He sounds loopy.

W has not said that what we had is completely done.

That's nice. But YOU can be done. So it doesn't matter what W says or not. You are in charge of YOUR willingness to participate. YOU can say you are done.

B & I have gone back to being friends cause we feel it's not right to continue until things have been talked about.

If you and B want to keep dating, that is you and B's business. Nothing to do with W. But because he's so close to W, you might want to pass and just not date him either. Spare yourself new drama. Just be friends with B and seek elsewhere for a dating partner. Consider you dodged a bullet.

W has had some very bad relationships in the past.

Not surprised. Sounds like he expects people to just “hail to the king” and mind reader whatever it is he has in his head.

He never takes anything at face value from anyone, especially a woman he is close too.

So he has trust issues he doesn't want to work on? So he “reads between the lines” to find the “secret hidden messages" whether they are there or not?” Ugh. He sounds difficult. Does he have a personality disorder?

As for J (the mono gf) they are in full on NRE. And she seems very good for him.

Great! Leave W to her and you steer clear of the W mess.

Galagirl

 

[Valynn]

On what? You not fulfilling his unspoken expectations? You are supposed to flutter around him tending to him always and mind readering? Maybe you don't want that job. He can think whatever. He sounds loopy.

The only thing we all agreed upon when we decided to become lovers is that we would communicate with one another. I did so and it crushed what we had. & when I stopped talking, W took it as I no longer wanted to be together with him & B. But he never tried to reach out to me either.

That's nice. But YOU can be done. So it doesn't matter what W says or not. You are in charge of YOUR willingness to participate. YOU can say you are done.

True, but I am still in love with him. I will step back & be his friend again. And I hope that we can be more in the future.

If you and B want to keep dating, that is you and B's business. Nothing to do with W. But because he's so close to W, you might want to pass and just not date him either. Spare yourself new drama. Just be friends with B and seek elsewhere for a dating partner. Consider you dodged a bullet.

Not surprised. Sounds like he expects people to just “hail to the king” and mind reader whatever it is he has in his head.

W would say "Just because I am not in the mood tonight doesn't mean that you 2 have to stop playing." But if we did continue or we were playing before he joined in, he would say "I guess you don't need me." He can be very passive-aggressive.

So he has trust issues he doesn't want to work on? So he “reads between the lines” to find the “secret hidden messages" whether they are there or not?” Ugh. He sounds difficult. Does he have a personality disorder?

W doesn't have a personality disorder. But both of his sisters do. He wants to love & be loved by everyone. And when things get in the way he gets frustrated.
Another example: I have a teenage son. The custody agreement is I have him every other weekend. W would get very testy if his weekend plans with B & I were interrupted by my obligations with DM. But, he would tell me that he sees my love & commitment to DM. And he loves me even more for it.

Great! Leave W to her and you steer clear of the W mess.

While I have been around J. I have never been alone long enough to get a good 'read' on her. The group of friends (the women particularly) I hang out with have been 'shielding' her. But that is for another discussion altogether!

 

[GalaGirl]

True, but I am still in love with him. I will step back & be his friend again. And I hope that we can be more in the future.

You can keep loving him. Just from a safer distance. Don't date right now.

W would say "Just because I am not in the mood tonight doesn't mean that you 2 have to stop playing." But if we did continue or we were playing before he joined in, he would say "I guess you don't need me." He can be very passive-aggressive.

That doesn't sound pleasant to date.

Seems like he says one thing and means another like it's some invisible "test" to "prove" your love for him. Then he gets all huffy when people take him at face value rather than him learning to just SAY what he means in the first place.

Is this chronic behavior with him? Say one thing and mean another? I guess if he operates with all the "hidden between the lines" communications himself he assumes everyone else does it. So he never believes anything anyone says.

I get that you are sad and you miss him and B. But honestly I think more time apart is best right now. W sounds really draining to be with. Until he clears up his issues, don't date him again. You deserve to be treated well in your relationships.

Galagirl

 

[Valynn]

You can keep loving him. Just from a safer distance. Don't date right now.

Right now, my priorities are DM, my soapmaking business & healing time for me.

That doesn't sound pleasant to date.

Seems like he says one thing and means another like it's some invisible "test" to "prove" your love for him. Then he gets all huffy when people take him at face value rather than him learning to just SAY what he means in the first place.

More like he's testing me for lies & inconsistencies. As well as jealousy, which I have told him I don't feel. I do feel envy on occasion though.

Is this chronic behavior with him? Say one thing and mean another? I guess if he operates with all the "hidden between the lines" communications himself he assumes everyone else does it. So he never believes anything anyone says.

W & I are empaths, we can feel others emotions very acutely. What I think he tries to do is have people read his emotions to get the broader picture. But he's not able to do so clearly. And not everyone is an empath.

I get that you are sad and you miss him and B. But honestly I think more time apart is best right now. W sounds really draining to be with. Until he clears up his issues, don't date him again. You deserve to be treated well in your relationships.

I know that what I am doing is the best for all of us. I know W can be draining, and it's part of the reason I went onto such a deep depression. I needed to ground myself of the negativity that was clinging to me from my horrible job. I also needed to learn how to do that myself & not to dump on others.

 

[drgnfly]

It's kinda hard to explain. Out of the 5 LT relationships I have had, 4 have been mono that turned poly that ended it.

See above with #2. I like some aspects of BDSM, I still have fears of it turning into abuse.

It's not hard to define, Pseudo = False
It's just hard to put into context. My best example is a pseudo girlfriend, a girl you see, and do thing's with as you would a normal girlfriend. However there is nothing said between you to officially be a couple. Usually that type of arrangement end's badly for someone since you can claim to be unattached.

I do not have much experience in the BDSM area, but i understand that there is a strong trust factor between those involved. If you feel potential abuse it is probably best to stay away from kink for now.

They are best friends so having them talk like this is nothing new.

Hate to say it, but boy's gossip too

True, but I am still in love with him. I will step back & be his friend again. And I hope that we can be more in the future.

I have learned sometimes loving someone is knowing when to let them go. If you can maintain friendship, that is great. No one knows the future, but if your holding onto the friendship only in hopes for some small potential, that's not fair to yourself.

Right now, my priorities are DM, my soapmaking business & healing time for me.

More like he's testing me for lies & inconsistencies.

I think your priorities are in the right place

Was there some reason for him to not trust you? if not why the testing? seems like a personality fault.

 

[Valynn]

Hate to say it, but boy's gossip too

I agree, they are definitely doing so.

I have learned sometimes loving someone is knowing when to let them go. If you can maintain friendship, that is great. No one knows the future, but if your holding onto the friendship only in hopes for some small potential, that's not fair to yourself.

A poem comes to mind when I read this:

If you love someone, set them free.
If they come back, they’re yours;
if they don’t, they never were.

W, B & I have been friends for 20+ years before any of this happened. I refuse to allow miscommunication to ruin it now.

I think your priorities are in the right place

Thanks, it's nice to hear that.

Was there some reason for him to not trust you? If not why the testing? Seems like a personality fault.

W's past relationships had alot of lying, emotional cheating & jealousy. He still has alot of emotional baggage from that. He felt like I abandoned him, when I stopped talking to them. But the thing I don't get about all this is I only live a few miles away from W & B. W never drove over to my house to see how I was doing. And when I would come over to drop off soap to the other housemates (other than B or W) or do some housecleaning for some extra cash. W would accuse me of intruding.

 

[drgnfly]

W's past relationships had alot of lying, emotional cheating & jealousy. He still has alot of emotional baggage from that. He felt like I abandoned him, when I stopped talking to them. But the thing I don't get about all this is I only live a few miles away from W & B. W never drove over to my house to see how I was doing. And when I would come over to drop off soap to the other housemates (other than B or W) or do some housecleaning for some extra cash. W would accuse me of intruding.

You chose to get involved with him with the knowledge of his past relationships, and unless you give him reason not to trust you, he shouldn't hold the issue's of his past ageist you. It's not fair to you.
If I understand correct, W also feel's like you abandoned him? And this is after him shutting down when you try to talk to him, moving onto another girl, and making no effort on his own to contact you. Then when you do come in close proximity to him he accuses you of intruding?
I would let the guy be for now. I know you feel you need closure, but in my own experience, sometimes the cost of that closure is really high.