A Question of Etiquette/Personalities/Preferences

[JaneQSmythe]

This question is a long time in the making and a bit convoluted but I will try to summarize.

Two events: a long planned vacation and a wedding

EVENT 1:

The vacation has been in the works for many, many months (almost a year). Originally it was to be a number of people but boiled down, in reality, to me, Dude, and my friend SLL (MrS and SLL's SO have ZERO interest in attending). I love my Dude, but acknowledge that he can be a very difficult person for some people to deal with (including me, at times). I am fascinated by my friend but can only handle her in small/infrequent doses because she is ALSO a very difficult person for some people to deal with (including me, at times).

I have traveled with each of them before (long road-trips) and not had a problem. BUT, when Dude (and MrS) were down at her place last week dealing with some trip-related issues (this particular trip requires a LOT of preparation) it became evident that Dude and SLL will NOT make good travelling companions. (They had each assured me that it "could not possibly" be a problem...they were wrong.) As a result, SLL has backed out of the trip (actually, as of today she is returning her ticket to me. Dude is starting his solo leg of the trip on Wednesday). Overall, this is not going to have a great effect on the trip as it pertains to Dude and I - it will just be more costly as we won't be sharing expenses with a third person.

EVENT 2:

SLL's wedding. This is slated for about a month after the above vacation, and has been in the works for 2-3 months. (As a same-sex couple they want to get married before the next political upheaval - i.e. the November elections).

She has asked me to be one of her bridesmaids(matrons?). Although this is on short notice, this is going to be a "high-end" affair and the bridesmaid dresses are being handmade by their local seamstress. Prior to last week, and determining that SLL and Dude have personalities that clash, we had received our invitation for "Mrs. Smythe and husband(s)" (PS. Thanks for "outing" me to the post office of our very tiny village)

ADDITIONAL WRINKLE: While Dude and MrS were at SLL's place her SO disclosed a fairly personal fact about her (the SO's) history, which is NOT common knowledge among the invitees of the wedding. While SLL was angrily pointing out all of Dude's flaws and why it is impossible for her to travel with him, she also brought up her fear that he would, at the wedding, disclose this personal fact about her SO. (To be fair, he actually has no filter and therefore his judgement can't be trusted to determine, for himself, what is appropriate conversation - HOWEVER, he is able to follow directions and avoid topics of conversation if I specifically request him to, as he does with my family/friends with children)

*********

So now, what is the dilemma? (You may ask). (FTR: This entire situation seems so drama-filled and juvenile that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that two grown-ass adults can't figure out how to communicate/interact civilly.)

If she doesn't want to go on the vacation that we have all been planning, that is her call. No problem. BUT, now here is the part where I am borrowing trouble, what if she retracts the invitation for Dude to the wedding? In order to make the timing all work out (considering how much time I had to take off for the vacation) I was counting on Dude and MrS driving me down after work on Thursday (while I slept) to make the rehearsal Friday for the wedding on Saturday and then bringing me home on Sunday. I don't know if MrS can handle all that driving on his own (or how much driving I can contribute after working a full day, then having to interact with a bunch of STRANGERS in my bridesmaid role - a horror upon horrors to my introverted self).

It is certainly her wedding and she and her SO can decide who they want to attend but ...on the other hand, do I really want to attend this event without both of my loves? (It's her wedding, it's not like she is going to spend that much time interacting with me personally, the only people I will know are the boys and her ex.)

I think I just have to talk to Dude about how he feels. I'm guessing he doesn't give two shits about going to her wedding (now). He probably wouldn't mind driving down with me and MrS and amusing himself during the rehearsal/wedding/reception (we already rented a hotel suite) and having my appreciative attentions the rest of the weekend.

Oy vey! How can my easy-peasy non-dramatic life get so stressful over NOT IMPORTANT CRAP!?

PS. That "summary" didn't really summarize real well...sorry.

 

[tenK]

I think this is a problem that your friend needs to solve, not you. She hasn't actually revoked Dude's invitation, so I would assume that she is still expecting to see him at the wedding. If she does approach you about it, then all you need to do is explain that logistically you cannot attend without him, and ask her if she has any other solutions (e.g. Another friend attending from your home town who you could comfortably carpool with). If she does not, then this means you cannot go. She's sadly down a bridesmaid at the 11th hour. Let her decide what she values more: a Dude-free and Jane-free wedding, or all of you there. Of course, emphasise the fact that Dude is not the indiscreet lummox that she takes him to be, but at the end of the day it's her choice of who to invite. As you point out already it's her wedding and NOT like she's going to actually get the chance to spend any quality time with anyone. Therefore, the fact that her and he are no good together when placed in close and extended proximity to one another shouldn't matter.

 

[Leetah]

Have you checked with any of the people who dropped out to see if any of them can now go? (what if they dropped out because of who was going?)

A "high end" wedding and that is how she addressed the invitation? Revoking an invitation unless Dude did something unforgivably bad would also be less than classy. If he is happy having free run of a hotel suite and you are willing to put up with one of your loves being disinvited that seems a satisfactory solution.

I hope the trip and wedding will still be fun.

Leetah

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

The trip part of it seemed solved enough. You guys just go, and deal with it being more expensive since it's it less people sharing the cost.

If she doesn't want to go on the vacation that we have all been planning, that is her call. No problem. BUT, now here is the part where I am borrowing trouble, what if she retracts the invitation for Dude to the wedding?

If she un-invites Dude, that's poor form since he's already been invited. But if she actually does that?

Don't go. Wish them well, send a present as a goodwill gesture, and recuse yourself from the bridal party. Because I am hearing this:

• You are tired of drama
• You only want to attend with both your loves.
• It's already sounding like you jumping through hoops to attend with low sleep/introvert batteries low. So adding another hoop with the driving doesn't sound great.
• And the cost of it all so soon after a vacation.

It's sounding less than "joyous yes" to me here and a lot of "spreading myself really thing."

To me anything less than "joyous yes" to me is a "working no" and I don't like to spread myself too thin. Even if she doesn't uninvited Dude... In your shoes I'd be thinking of giving this wedding a pass. Just too much energy drain for introverted me.

You have to figure out what it costs introverted you.

Galagirl

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies! Just writing it all out helped clarify several things for me in terms of where my priorities are and where my energies will be directed.

I spoke with Dude last night - he does NOT want to attend the wedding, whether or not his invitation has been revoked or not. (Which is convenient, as she revoked it today in a phone convo with me.) At this point, it seems like he doesn't want to make the trip since he is not going to the wedding (beach destination - not his favorite).

MrS and I talked about it. We can handle the driving with or without Dude. So, I am inclined to attend with MrS alone (MrS and SLL are not friends but they get along fine and he thinks the other bride is pretty cool, and I am curious to meet her.)

I also kind of like the idea of having a mini-vacation with MrS after having been gone with Dude for two weeks (the longest MrS and I have been apart) - kind of a time for "re-connection" outside of our usual routine.

...ask her if she has any other solutions (e.g. Another friend attending from your home town who you could comfortably carpool with).

Interestingly, I actually don't know anyone else that she knows except her ex-girlfriend (who is the other bridesmaid and lives in a different direction)...kind of interesting that the two people she feels closest to are me (and I see her more as an "adventure buddy" than best friend) and her ex, no?

Let her decide what she values more: a Dude-free and Jane-free wedding, or all of you there. Of course, emphasise the fact that Dude is not the indiscreet lummox that she takes him to be, but at the end of the day it's her choice of who to invite. As you point out already it's her wedding and NOT like she's going to actually get the chance to spend any quality time with anyone. Therefore, the fact that her and he are no good together when placed in close and extended proximity to one another shouldn't matter.

This was my plan until Dude made the decision that he was "declining the invitation" anyway.

Have you checked with any of the people who dropped out to see if any of them can now go? (what if they dropped out because of who was going?)

The other people that were considering going were her friends (that I don't know) and MrS - and he STILL doesn't want to go (even though Dude really, really wants him to - I would, except that I think he might actually be miserable.)

A "high end" wedding and that is how she addressed the invitation?...

Notice how I put "high end" in quotes? In this case "high end" = "I am spending a lot of money and I want everyone to know it" Classy.

I hope the trip and wedding will still be fun.

Leetah

Thank you, they will be. Even if they crash and burn and are recorded in history as the biggest fiascos of the century. I have a huge capacity to enjoy how the world decides to re-align itself, the irony can be hilarious. (As an aside, 20+ years ago MrS and I got marrried, a relatively simple affair in my parents' backyard - it was lovely. At some point my mother expressed her anxiety that things could go wrong, my response: "Mom, at the end of the day, if MrS and I are married and no one is dead, then the wedding was a success." I stand by that philosophy)

The trip part of it seemed solved enough. You guys just go, and deal with it being more expensive since it's it less people sharing the cost.

Yup. We are going! (Dude will be be leaving in a few hours!) She returned the ticket (which I had purchased) and so we can try to resell and recoup some of the cost. (Interestingly, she texted me today that we had to make some "arrangement" for the costs that she incurred in anticipation of the trip for items that we will be using even though she is not going.)

Because I am hearing this:

• You are tired of drama (1000% this!)
• You only want to attend with both your loves. (50% this - I would rather have both for my own reasons, but one is enough if the other doesn't want to go - either could have opted out initially)
• It's already sounding like you jumping through hoops to attend with low sleep/introvert batteries low. So adding another hoop with the driving doesn't sound great. (20% this - I was willing to jump though hoops, this is only adding ONE more hoop, not a dozen)
• And the cost of it all so soon after a vacation.At this point, I will pay for our hotel, driving costs and my dress - hopefully it will be within the range she told me. My attendance as her bridesmaid will be my gift to her. (We have never been "gift-exchanging friends")

....

You have to figure out what it costs introverted you.

Galagirl

Yup, working on it.

 

[kdt26417]

Sounds like you have everything worked out so far. That's good to hear.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sounds like you have a plan then for the wedding.

Hope it goes well!

Galagirl

 

[MrFarFromRight]

On reading the OP, my first reaction was: "Why are you worrying about what to do if Dude is outvited, when that hasn't happened yet... and might never happen?" But obviously, you knew SLL better than I.

BTW, if SLL addressed the invitation in that way, no wonder she worries about Dude putting his foot in it: she judges others by her own behaviour.

When you wrote that she was sending her ticket back to you, I thought: "Whaaa?" But then you explained that one: you were the one who bought it. You know the best channels to get a refund. But then comes this to smack me right between the eyes:

I see her more as an "adventure buddy" than best friend
[...]
Notice how I put "high end" in quotes? In this case "high end" = "I am spending a lot of money and I want everyone to know it" Classy.
[...]
She returned the ticket (which I had purchased) and so we can try to resell and recoup some of the cost. (Interestingly, she texted me today that we had to make some "arrangement" for the costs that she incurred in anticipation of the trip for items that we will be using even though she is not going.)

(Red highlighting by MFFR) So...

a) She is not a really close friend.

b) Neither is she really poor. BTW, "I am spending a lot of money and I want everyone to know it"="I am spending a lot of money and so everybody who comes to my wedding is expected to pay their share (hotel bills, special clothes, presents...) and not let the side down".

c) She decides to go on a [fairly expensive?] holiday, then backs out after the ticket has been bought.

d) She expects you to incur the loss due to her cancellation. This might turn out to be the full cost of the ticket, if it can't be resold.

e) Furthermore, she expects you to refund part of the money for items that she intended to benefit from on said vacation.

Did I understand that right? Or does she "just" want you to recoup as much money as you can for her ticket and she'll cover the losses?

If my first reading was correct, I would consider one of the 3 options (I tend toward the 1st, but it's up to you):

1) Informing her that - due to unforeseen increased costs of the vacation because of so many people backing out - you find that you can't really afford to pay for a matron's dress + hotel room for 2 for a w/e... and hope that she has a lovely wedding.

2) Telling her that if she changes her plans, she has to incur the resulting losses. Next time maybe she'll take out vacation insurance.

3) Handing her an envelope when you arrive for the wedding, telling her that it's your and Dude's wedding present to her. Inside, a card that says: "We are happy to pay for the following expenses you incurred through failed vacation plans."

[If that reading wasn't right - and, now that I think about it calmly, how could it be right??? (but I'll let it stand, just in case) - her only cheeky (as we say in Ireland) acts are dumping on you the responsibility/work of reselling the ticket, and quibbling about paying her share for items that she (together with you... and others?) ordered for the joint vacation... a vacation that's going to be more expensive for you anyway because she let you down.]

Whatever you decide: have a nice beach vacation! (Tell Dude not to blab SLL's SO's secret to the bellhop. Or fellow campers if you're not staying in a hotel.)

 

[JaneQSmythe]

On reading the OP, my first reaction was: "Why are you worrying about what to do if Dude is outvited, when that hasn't happened yet... and might never happen?" But obviously, you knew SLL better than I.

Yup. Totally saw that one coming.

BTW, if SLL addressed the invitation in that way, no wonder she worries about Dude putting his foot in it: she judges others by her own behaviour.

Yup, "Mrs. Smythe and husband(s)" - she thought it was amusing.

When you wrote that she was sending her ticket back to you, I thought: "Whaaa?" But then you explained that one: you were the one who bought it. You know the best channels to get a refund. But then comes this to smack me right between the eyes: So...

a) She is not a really close friend.

b) Neither is she really poor. BTW, "I am spending a lot of money and I want everyone to know it"="I am spending a lot of money and so everybody who comes to my wedding is expected to pay their share (hotel bills, special clothes, presents...) and not let the side down".

c) She decides to go on a [fairly expensive?] holiday, then backs out after the ticket has been bought.

d) She expects you to incur the loss due to her cancellation. This might turn out to be the full cost of the ticket, if it can't be resold.

e) Furthermore, she expects you to refund part of the money for items that she intended to benefit from on said vacation.

Did I understand that right?

Yup. Nail-on-head. (If you want the details I can PM you - but ,basically, you read it correctly).

 

[MrFarFromRight]

"I am spending a lot of money and I want everyone to know it."

One of the crazier wedding trends sweeping the USA at the moment is “renting” a bridesmaid. Well, why not? After all, your wedding is only one of the most unforgettable days of your life! Why wouldn’t you want a complete stranger standing next to you?

Actually: last year's trend. But if she really wants everybody to know it, this could be just the thing.

That's a view from Oz aka Down Under. If you want the view from a bit closer to home (my side of the Atlantic):
[Prices] reach a crescendo with the "by your side" bridesmaid experience, starting from $1,000 (£770). This essentially sees a bride paying a perfect stranger to be with them for the whole wedding process, right down to mingling with the wedding party and appearing in photos.

There are a few additional costs for the bride to think about, such as transportation and the dress Jen will wear (and yes, she gets to keep them); but with the average wedding now costing in the region of $26,000 (£20,000), according to the Cost of Wedding website, a few hundred extra might not seem all that much for some brides.

 

[MrFarFromRight]

"right down to mingling with the wedding party and appearing in photos"[/URL]

AND drinking herself legless, insulting the groom (in SLL's case: SO), making a pass at the ring-bearer, humping the bride's father, and throwing up in the punch bowl.

There are a few additional costs for the bride to think about, such as transportation...[/URL]

... including chauffeur to drive her home (unless the bride's father is "a real gentleman"), because after all that she'll have passed out and it'll be impossible to revive her.

In short, a mere thousand to ensure a wedding that everybody will remember (except the rent-a-bridesmaid herself, who can't tell one from another)... and talk about for years to come. What more could a bride want?

There are a few additional costs for the bride to think about, such as [...] the dress Jen will wear (and yes, she gets to keep them)

THIS made me larf! "them"? WHAT "them"??? She buys a dress from Walmart (we've heard of these guys over here), charges the bride for a haute couture dress, charges the next bride for the same dress, charges the next bride...

This is where the profit really comes from, because - when you think about it - $1,000 isn't much to cover the rest of it.

BTW, Jane, how much did your wedding cost, all inclusive?

 

[MrFarFromRight]

My last 2 comments might seem (to some) off-topic. Also trivialising "A Question of Etiquette/Personalities/Preferences"...

But honestly, if you can't laugh about SLL's etiquette, you gotta cry.

You are probably a lot nicer person than I am, Jane, but if someone pulled that "here's my ticket: see what you can get for it" shtick on me, I would seriously consider sending them the bill for your hotel suite, and saying: "Maybe you can find some other wedding guests who'll buy the reservation off you. Oh, and I bought a 50lb bag of rice to throw at you, but since I won't be attending the wedding, I've donated it to War On Want. We'll have to make some arrangement for the costs."

 

[JaneQSmythe]

BTW, Jane, how much did your wedding cost, all inclusive?

Approx $3,000 ALL told? (I used to say $2,500 but then I think about the cost of what was "gifted" to us outside of our parents.)

I paid for my dress ($401.25 at consignment shop after alterations)
and our rings ($269.64). I know those two numbers precisely because they are in my wedding album.

My parent's hosted and paid for: rental of 1 tent, 120 chairs, 10 tables and the lumber that my dad used to build a reusable dance floor that he could break down and store along the front of his two car garage (used subsequently for 2 more weddings and several graduation parties). A case of cheap champagne and 2 kegs of GOOD beer. Under $100 for flowers - 3 small and 1 medium bouquet, 3 small and 1 medium boutineer, 2 corsages for our moms, cake topper arrangement and loose flowers for my and my maids' hair (which was arranged by my mother/ourselves - mostly braids and buns).

(Over the years dad may have spent more on the landscaping that we used - the poplar arbor where we had our pics taken, which he planted 7 years earlier "in case one of you girls wants to get married here - I think it would look pretty." The stone patio next to the porch where we had our receiving line - which he finished earlier that summer.)

My in-laws cooked and paid for: ribs, chicken and burgers (meat for 120 guests - grilled on BBQ pit dad dug in side yard) and our honeymoon (cruise).

Things that we didn't pay for/received as gifts:
photos - taken by my uncle (plus a disposable camera on each table encouraging "candids")
cake - made by my mother
DJ - gift from my sisters (a friend of theirs)
officiant - best friend of my father
other food - made and brought by mom's "church lady friends" - stored in neighbors' fridges
hanging baskets of flowers to decorate/flower baskets for center-pieces - borrowed from church ladies and neighbors
"valet" parking - by our groomsmen with permission of the township and nearby neighbors
live music/pianist for ceremony - my friends from HS band

Let's see: what else do people pay for? Umm...MrS rented a tux for the day (groomsmen wore khaki's, white shirts, ties (and sunglasses - it was VERY sunny, I should have spent a few bucks on sunscreen). Maids of honor (our sisters) picked out their own dresses - under $100 each and just "Sunday dresses" although SIL wore her's to her sorority spring dance the next year.

I guess we probably shelled out a few more bucks for the wedding license and our syphilis tests? (Random wedding trivia - the 42-year PA law requiring brides and grooms be tested for syphilis before they could be married was repealed in 1997, the year AFTER we got married.)

*********************************

Now, this was over 20 years ago and we were very young (I was 22 and he was 23) and POOR (I was in grad school and he had a service job)...I'm sure "times they are a changin;"

I'm sure SLL would never settle for my "pot-luck" type of wedding - but I LOVED it! (NOT that I would do it again - my younger self had different wants and needs than my current self, and MrS was gracious enough to accommodate me )

 

[JaneQSmythe]

My last 2 comments might seem (to some) off-topic. Also trivialising "A Question of Etiquette/Personalities/Preferences"...

But honestly, if you can't laugh about SLL's etiquette, you gotta cry.

"To some" would not include me. SLL's conspicuous consumption while loudly condemning others for not "doing their part" (for the poor, for minorities, for "us-poor-little-rich-kids" is a constant source of bewilderment for me. Elitist, self-righteous, and tacky - all at the same time? How does one reconcile that? (Which is why I have been her "adventure buddy" for so long without considering her a "close friend" - but who can look away from a perpetually evolving train-wreck?)

You are probably a lot nicer person than I am, Jane, but if someone pulled that "here's my ticket: see what you can get for it" shtick on me, I would seriously consider sending them the bill for your hotel suite, and saying: "Maybe you can find some other wedding guests who'll buy the reservation off you. Oh, and I bought a 50lb bag of rice to throw at you, but since I won't be attending the wedding, I've donated it to War On Want. We'll have to make some arrangement for the costs."

#1.) I am NOT a nice person - I have ulterior amusements (see "train-wreck-in-progress" comment above)!

#2.) The "50lb bag of rice" comment got me laughing.
---a.) While re-arranging and sorting out our supplies to take to the Event, Dude and I had to re-arrange our pseudo-survivalist cache of 20# bags of rice and my OCD was really tweaked by the fact that Dude could intermingle that with our 20# bags of pinto beans without batting an eyelash.
---b.) Throwing rice at weddings is so passe - everyone knows it is bad for the birds to eat, all of the environment-friendly folk throw birdseed (except us, Dad had them throw GRASS-seed, to compensate for the extra traffic on his lawn!)
---c.) SLL and SO will likely desire to be showered with gold and fairy dust! Or tiny unicorns farting rainbows?

 

[nycindie]

. . . at the end of the day, if MrS and I are married and no one is dead, then the wedding was a success.

Hahahahaha, I love this!

Anything can go wrong, and I've heard some real doozies about people's weddings, but it is true that if you get hitched and no one dies by the time it's over, it's all good!

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Hahahahaha, I love this!

Anything can go wrong, and I've heard some real doozies about people's weddings, but it is true that if you get hitched and no one dies by the time it's over, it's all good!

I am glad that you appreciated that!

Sometimes you just have to step away and get some perspective. What is actually, REALLY, the point of all this (you know - life, the universe, and everything?)

I, personally, think that it is to grab the most that we can of the short time that we have. Enjoy ourselves and share as much joy as we can with our fellow men. Alleviate suffering to the best of our abilities and resources...


If the wedding day itself is "the most important day of your life" - what does that really say about your life (and your relationship)? I think that the wedding is a symbol and celebration of what you HOPE to experience during the next 365 x N days!

*************************

I work in healthcare - I have to take this philosophy to work everyday.

Sometimes the answer to the question "How was work today?" is "Good, nobody died." Sometimes the answer is "Not bad, people died - but it's ok because it was their time." On the bad days? "People died, and it sucked, and the only thing that I can hold onto is that I did the best that I could...."

Then there are the REALLY bad days - the ones where you run through each decision and second-guess yourself? and you never know if you "Fucked-Up" or if it was "Their-Time"?

SO? I'm REAL good at appreciating "Well, nobody DIED!"

 

[MrFarFromRight]

The "50lb bag of rice" comment got me laughing.
[...]
---b.) Throwing rice at weddings is so passe - everyone knows it is bad for the birds to eat, all of the environment-friendly folk throw birdseed (except us, Dad had them throw GRASS-seed, to compensate for the extra traffic on his lawn!)

The last wedding I attended was my own, over 36 years ago. (I no longer believe in them.) The last time I threw rice at a "wedding" was at a screening of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" [indoors, no birds or other animals were harmed during the screening of this motion picture], so that explains my passé comment.

So you enjoy train wrecks. You seem to be willing to pay a high price to witness them.

If I were you, I’d put my foot down about not paying extra costs (loss on her ticket being resold et al. [Other readers might accuse me of penny-pinching. But - due to insider information - I can assure them that it isn't penny-pinching!] Then – if you wish – you might contribute the money so saved to a good cause, e.g. a party for your fellow health-care workers. You people deserve all the perks you can get.

And remember this: you don't have to be inside the train to sustain heavy injuries when it runs off the rails. Be careful!